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This is correspondance between myself and Miklos Borbas so that I could suggest ways of testing for wind type propulsion of his solid dielectric candle engine and, having reasonably eliminated that as much as can be done through emails, to gather enough details to attempt a replication. Schematic and videos of his device can be found on his Reactionless force engines (field propulsion engines) website (scroll down to figure 6 and the videos that follow it).
Summary of the Construction Details from the Correspondance
In the correspondance below, various bits of information are gathered regarding Miklos's construction of his device. I've summarized them here. Note that there is still more in the correspondance below about things I suggested Miklos try and his results.
- My power supply is about 60kV, +/- 30kV, but I dont know precisely voltage.
- I measured the current, it is about 3 mikroampers.
- Dimensions of candles: 15cm x 3cm. Needles are 3cm long.
- Candles are quiet yellow candles.
- [Steve:] 1. What did you use for the needle electrode? Did you
use a sewing needle?
[Miklos:] Yes, you can use sewing needle. - [Steve:] 2. What is the distance between the electrodes (the
tip of the needle and the flat electrode)? An estimate will be okay.
[Miklos:] About 12cm, it is not a strict distance. - [Steve:] 3. Your drawing, candles.wmf, says "Needles". Did you use more than
one needle?
[Miklos:] Yes, I used 3 needles. - [Steve:] 4. Did you use an actual candle? A candle has a
wick/string down the middle. Did you leave the wick
in place or did you remove it somehow? Can you
please explain what you did with this?
[Miklos:] I only removed the endes of candles, I leave the wick. - [Steve:] 5. Your drawing, candles.wmf, says "Sleek conductor
surface". What do you mean by "Sleek"?
[Miklos:] That electrode can not have rubs, that must be sleek. Practically I only put on the opposit side of candles insulated wire, like on the picture. - [Steve:] You say that you only removed the ends of the candles. Did
you then push the needles into the wax, 3cm deep? In that case the
needles must be beside the wick in the wax. Can you please tell me if
this is right.
[Miklos:] Yes, I pushed needles into the wax, and to other side put insulation (yellow colour, its can see on the picture). Neddles are beside the wick in the wax. - [Steve:] Did I put the needles on the wrong side in my drawing?
[Miklos:] "Yellow" insulation is on the greater side of needles, from outside of candle. On other side of candle is insulated wire.gyertya_electrodes1.jpg (NOTE: from correspondance with Miklos, there is no smooth rounded disk, only the insulated wire is on that end) 
[Steve:] I think that means I've drawn it correctly.
The Correspondance
======================================================================= To: lifters@yahoogroup... From: Miklos Borbas Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust Hi! In dielectric with high K factor, the lifter thrust will be significantly increased. You can see the pictures of this device on my web site (figure 6): http://www.fw.hu/bmiklos2000 Regards: Borbas Miklos ======================================================================= From: Steven Dufresne To: Lifters@yahoogroup... Subject: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:13:33 +0000 Congradulations Borbas! This is the first device I can recall that worked while both electrodes were completely immersed in the same dielectric. Good job insulating the feed wires too. There is still one possibility that it could be some form of reaction effect with the air. The electric field is not entirely between the electrodes. I remember for one of my lifters, the air was violently disturbed as much as 7 or 8 cm away from the electrodes. So I would suggest that you also do a plastic bag test. BUT, all parts of the bag must be as far from the electrodes as possible (10cm, 15cm, ... whatever you can manage). Bag tests where the bag is very close to or touching the device are not convincing. 1. If it still moves then great! 2. If it doesn't move then the problem may be the added weight of the bag so try it again with the bag hanging from the same thing as the device but with the device outside the bag. 2.a) If it doesn't move then you have a jet reaction effect. 2.b) If it doesn't move then the bag is too heavy and you have to try something else. If you do this test, please let us know the results either way. Good work! Steve Miklos Borbas wrote: > Hi! > > In dielectric with high K factor, the lifter thrust ... ======================================================================= From: Steven Dufresne To: Miklos Borbas Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:37:21 +0000 Hi Borbas, I suspect that you don't receive emails from the Lifters group. Just in case you don't I sent this reply to the group this morning. -Steve -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:13:33 +0000 From: Steven Dufresne Reply-To: Lifters@yahoogroup... To: Lifters@yahoogroup... References: <20050821192054.82651.qmail@web33401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Congradulations Borbas! This is the first device I can recall .. ======================================================================= From: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] To: Steven Dufresne Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Hi Steve! I already tested this system with plastic bag, you can see this video on my web site: zacsko.avi http://www.fw.hu/bmiklos2000 Miklos --- Steven Dufresne wrote: > Hi Borbas, > I suspect that you don't receive emails from the ... ======================================================================= From: Steven Dufresne To: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:00:19 +0000 Hi Miklos, I was very surprised with your bag test (zacsko.avi) that it moved at around the same speed as without the bag. Usually with the bag, the movement is much slower. However, I noticed that on both ends, the bag is very close to the device. Also, it is close in some places on the sides to. The asymmetric electric field can still extend far outside the bag and move the air like a jet. The air does not have to be ionized for this to happen. The bag has to be larger to cover more of the electric field. You can see the effect of the electric field if you hold the flame of a candle near the outside of the bag. For example, see: http://rimstar.org/sdprop/lifter/lifterwindtests1/lifterwindtests1.htm Notice that the flame in the picture is far from the lifter but is pointing downwards. You can make the bag bigger by either making a light frame and attaching plastic to it, or by using an airtight bag that you inflate. I'd suggest you: 1. Test your current bag setup using the candle with flame. 2. If you see the flame moving then make a bigger bag and repeat step 1 again. Keep doing this until you see no more air movement. But if your device no longer moves, make sure you test to see if it is because the bag has gotten too heavy. Hopefully it will keep moving no matter how big the bag is. Also, two questions: - What are you using for the dielectric? Is it just wax or did you put something else too? - How much voltage are you using? Keep up the good work, Steve Miklos Borbas wrote: > Hi Steve! > > I already tested this system with plastic bag, you can ... ======================================================================= From: Steven Dufresne To: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:16:26 +0000 Hi Miklos, I realized I may not have been clear on something with regards to the steps I suggested. When you are testing with a candle flame near the bag, you should fix it so that your rotor will not turn (i.e. your device should not move). The point of the test is to see if the air is being moved like a jet by the electric field. It would still be a good idea after the test to see if the device with the larger bag moves just as fast or has slowed down. Cheers, Steve Steven Dufresne wrote: > Hi Miklos, > I was very surprised with your bag test (zacsko.avi) that it moved ... ======================================================================= From: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] To: Steven Dufresne Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 06:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Hi Steve! If I push up the air from the bags, it will be much more aerodinamic and then will the system rotate fast like without the bags. Regards: Miklos --- Steven Dufresne wrote: > Hi Miklos, > I realized I may not have been clear on something ... ======================================================================= From: Steven Dufresne To: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:10:42 +0000 Hi Miklos, Does that mean you've done the flame test to see if there is air movement outside the inflated bags (while holding the rotor stationary of course)? Thanks! Steve Miklos Borbas wrote: > Hi Steve! > > If I push up the air from the bags, it will be much ... ======================================================================= From: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] To: Steven Dufresne Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Hi Steve! In this system does not exist air movement, I think then this system is driving by BB effect, clear reactionless force. Thanks! Miklos --- Steven Dufresne wrote: > Hi Miklos, > Does that mean you've done the flame test to see if ... ======================================================================= From: Steven Dufresne To: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:25:36 +0000 Hi Miklos, I agree that if it is the BB effect then it would not move air. My question was, did you test for air movement? Thinking about it again, you could just put your device in the inflated bag and, with the rotor, put smoke around the outside of the bag to see if there is air movement. Cheers, Steve Miklos Borbas wrote: > Hi Steve! > > In this system does not exist air movement, I think ... ======================================================================= From: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] To: Steven Dufresne Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Hi Steve! I tested my system in smoke, its can not see any air movement. I think than it is only BB effect what move this system. Regards: Miklos --- Steven Dufresne wrote: > Hi Miklos, > I agree that if it is the BB effect then it would ... ======================================================================= From: Steven Dufresne To: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:23:51 +0000 Hi Miklos, In that case, in the spirit of the scientific process, I should try and replicate your experiment. Can you please answer as much of the following as possible: - What voltage are you using? If you don't know then at least describing your power supply should help. - Did you measure the current? If yes, how much? - What are the dimensions of the device? What are the dimensions of the electrodes inside the device? - What materials is the device made of? How is it made? Thanks! Steve Miklos Borbas wrote: > Hi Steve! > > I tested my system in smoke, its can not see any air ... ======================================================================= From: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] To: Steven Dufresne Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Hi Steve! Here are the answers: - My power supply is about 60kV, +/- 30kV, but I dont know precisely voltage. - I measured the current, it is about 3 mikroampers. - Dimensions of candles: 15cm x 3cm. Needles are 3cm long. - Candles are quiet yellow candles. Regards: Miklos --- Steven Dufresne wrote: > Hi Miklos, > In that case, in the spirit of the scientific ... ======================================================================= From: Steven Dufresne To: Miklos Borbas Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust] Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:03:01 +0000 Hi Miklos! Thanks for the information. I was just starting to get ready to put together the parts and was looking at your diagram (candle.wmv) when I realized what was likely producing the force. The feed wires. Your device is such a good capacitor and the parts inside the wax are so far apart that the capacitor that is producing the force is not the device. The capacitor that is producing the force is the feed wires where they are closest together (see the attached picture). This is where you have the strongest electric field. The insulation does not matter when the electric field is so strong. The thing that is ionizing the air molecules is the strong electric field near the wires. This strong electric field rips electrons from the molecules, producing ions. The ions are then moved by the electric field. Here is the explanation of what then happens: "This can be simply explained by the fact that the ionic mobility of positive ions in the air, 1.32 (cm/sec)/(volt/cm), is less than the ionic mobility of negative ions in the air, 2.51 (cm/sec)/(volt/cm). The concentration of the electric field near the thin wire produces a corona discharge. Positive ions are generated at the wire, the wire positively charged repels the ions and thus the force on the wire is roughly equal to that on the ions. The negative/positive mobility of ions ratio is about 1.9, so the force on a positive conductor is greater than on a negative conductor, this is the cause of the generation of an unidirectionnal thrust." The above is from: http://members.aol.com/ekpland/html/pcespend.htm where the same thing is happening. In his case Jean-Louis gets no movement with insulated wires (TEST #2). However, his wires are far apart. Your wires are close together. I would ask that you do one more test. Arrange your wires so that they are farther apart and, as much as possible, make the wires parallel to the axis of the rotor arm (i.e. try not to have one wire be in front of the other wire). Now the stronger electric field will be inside and around the device. My bet is the following: - without a bag you might have some weak movement because of the asymmetric electric field around the device, and - with a bag that is inflated all around the device, so that the insides of the bag in all directions are far from the device, you will have no movement. If you want more ideas for using bags and paper to block air movement, see: http://rimstar.org/sdprop/poynting/cdpoc1/cdpoc1.htm I hope you do this test and let me know the results. Cheers! Steve Miklos Borbas wrote: > Hi Steve! > > Here are the answers: ... --------------050203080608040807070502 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="gyertya_posexpla.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="gyertya_posexpla.jpg"
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