This is correspondance between myself and Miklos Borbas so that I could
suggest ways of testing for wind type propulsion of his solid dielectric
candle engine and, having reasonably eliminated that as much as can be
done through emails, to gather enough details to attempt a replication.
Schematic and videos of his device can be found
on his
Reactionless force engines (field propulsion engines)
website (scroll down to figure 6 and the videos that follow it).
Summary of the Construction Details from the Correspondance
In the correspondance below, various bits of information are gathered
regarding Miklos's construction of his device. I've summarized them here.
Note that there is still more in the correspondance below about things I
suggested Miklos try and his results.
- My power supply is about 60kV, +/- 30kV, but I dont know precisely voltage.
- I measured the current, it is about 3 mikroampers.
- Dimensions of candles: 15cm x 3cm. Needles are 3cm long.
- Candles are quiet yellow candles.
- [Steve:] 1. What did you use for the needle electrode? Did you
use a sewing needle?
[Miklos:] Yes, you can use sewing needle.
- [Steve:] 2. What is the distance between the electrodes (the
tip of the needle and the flat electrode)? An estimate will be okay.
[Miklos:] About 12cm, it is not a strict distance.
- [Steve:] 3. Your drawing, candles.wmf, says "Needles". Did you use more than
one needle?
[Miklos:] Yes, I used 3 needles.
- [Steve:] 4. Did you use an actual candle? A candle has a
wick/string down the middle. Did you leave the wick
in place or did you remove it somehow? Can you
please explain what you did with this?
[Miklos:] I only removed the endes of candles, I leave the wick.
- [Steve:] 5. Your drawing, candles.wmf, says "Sleek conductor
surface". What do you mean by "Sleek"?
[Miklos:] That electrode can not have rubs, that must be sleek.
Practically I only put on the opposit side of candles
insulated wire, like on the picture.
- [Steve:] You say that you only removed the ends of the candles. Did
you then push the needles into the wax, 3cm deep? In that case the
needles must be beside the wick in the wax. Can you please tell me if
this is right.
[Miklos:] Yes, I pushed needles into the wax, and to other side
put insulation (yellow colour, its can see on the
picture). Neddles are beside the wick in the wax.
- [Steve:] Did I put the needles on the wrong side in my drawing?
gyertya_electrodes1.jpg (NOTE: from correspondance
with Miklos, there is no smooth rounded disk, only the insulated wire is
on that end)
 |
|
[Miklos:] "Yellow" insulation is on the greater side of needles,
from outside of candle. On other side of candle is
insulated wire.
[Steve:] I think that means I've drawn it correctly.
The Correspondance
=======================================================================
To: lifters@yahoogroup...
From: Miklos Borbas
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:20:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust
Hi!
In dielectric with high K factor, the lifter thrust
will be significantly increased.
You can see the pictures of this device on my web site
(figure 6):
http://www.fw.hu/bmiklos2000
Regards:
Borbas Miklos
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Lifters@yahoogroup...
Subject: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:13:33 +0000
Congradulations Borbas! This is the first device I can recall
that worked while both electrodes were completely immersed in
the same dielectric. Good job insulating the feed wires too.
There is still one possibility that it could be some form of
reaction effect with the air. The electric field is not entirely
between the electrodes. I remember for one of my lifters, the
air was violently disturbed as much as 7 or 8 cm away from the
electrodes. So I would suggest that you also do a plastic bag
test. BUT, all parts of the bag must be as far from the electrodes
as possible (10cm, 15cm, ... whatever you can manage). Bag tests
where the bag is very close to or touching the device are not
convincing.
1. If it still moves then great!
2. If it doesn't move then the problem may be the added weight of
the bag so try it again with the bag hanging from the same thing
as the device but with the device outside the bag.
2.a) If it doesn't move then you have a jet reaction effect.
2.b) If it doesn't move then the bag is too heavy and you have to
try something else.
If you do this test, please let us know the results either way.
Good work!
Steve
Miklos Borbas wrote:
> Hi!
>
> In dielectric with high K factor, the lifter thrust
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:37:21 +0000
Hi Borbas,
I suspect that you don't receive emails from the Lifters group.
Just in case you don't I sent this reply to the group this morning.
-Steve
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:13:33 +0000
From: Steven Dufresne
Reply-To: Lifters@yahoogroup...
To: Lifters@yahoogroup...
References: <20050821192054.82651.qmail@web33401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Congradulations Borbas! This is the first device I can recall
..
=======================================================================
From: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
To: Steven Dufresne
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Steve!
I already tested this system with plastic bag, you can
see this video on my web site: zacsko.avi
http://www.fw.hu/bmiklos2000
Miklos
--- Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Borbas,
> I suspect that you don't receive emails from the
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:00:19 +0000
Hi Miklos,
I was very surprised with your bag test (zacsko.avi) that it moved
at around the same speed as without the bag. Usually with the bag,
the movement is much slower.
However, I noticed that on both ends, the bag is very close to the
device. Also, it is close in some places on the sides to. The asymmetric
electric field can still extend far outside the bag and move the air
like a jet. The air does not have to be ionized for this to happen.
The bag has to be larger to cover more of the electric field.
You can see the effect of the electric field if you hold the flame of
a candle near the outside of the bag. For example, see:
http://rimstar.org/sdprop/lifter/lifterwindtests1/lifterwindtests1.htm
Notice that the flame in the picture is far from the lifter but is
pointing downwards.
You can make the bag bigger by either making a light frame and attaching
plastic to it, or by using an airtight bag that you inflate. I'd suggest
you:
1. Test your current bag setup using the candle with flame.
2. If you see the flame moving then make a bigger bag and repeat step 1
again.
Keep doing this until you see no more air movement. But if your device
no longer moves, make sure you test to see if it is because the bag has
gotten too heavy. Hopefully it will keep moving no matter how big the
bag is.
Also, two questions:
- What are you using for the dielectric? Is it just wax or did you put
something else too?
- How much voltage are you using?
Keep up the good work,
Steve
Miklos Borbas wrote:
> Hi Steve!
>
> I already tested this system with plastic bag, you can
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:16:26 +0000
Hi Miklos,
I realized I may not have been clear on something with regards to
the steps I suggested. When you are testing with a candle flame
near the bag, you should fix it so that your rotor will not turn
(i.e. your device should not move). The point of the test is to see
if the air is being moved like a jet by the electric field.
It would still be a good idea after the test to see if the device
with the larger bag moves just as fast or has slowed down.
Cheers,
Steve
Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Miklos,
> I was very surprised with your bag test (zacsko.avi) that it moved
...
=======================================================================
From: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
To: Steven Dufresne
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 06:05:57 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Steve!
If I push up the air from the bags, it will be much
more aerodinamic and then will the system rotate fast
like without the bags.
Regards:
Miklos
--- Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Miklos,
> I realized I may not have been clear on something
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:10:42 +0000
Hi Miklos,
Does that mean you've done the flame test to see if
there is air movement outside the inflated bags (while
holding the rotor stationary of course)?
Thanks!
Steve
Miklos Borbas wrote:
> Hi Steve!
>
> If I push up the air from the bags, it will be much
...
=======================================================================
From: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
To: Steven Dufresne
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:28:19 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Steve!
In this system does not exist air movement, I think
then this system is driving by BB effect, clear
reactionless force.
Thanks!
Miklos
--- Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Miklos,
> Does that mean you've done the flame test to see if
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:25:36 +0000
Hi Miklos,
I agree that if it is the BB effect then it would
not move air. My question was, did you test for
air movement? Thinking about it again, you could
just put your device in the inflated bag and, with
the rotor, put smoke around the outside of the bag
to see if there is air movement.
Cheers,
Steve
Miklos Borbas wrote:
> Hi Steve!
>
> In this system does not exist air movement, I think
...
=======================================================================
From: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
To: Steven Dufresne
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Steve!
I tested my system in smoke, its can not see any air
movement. I think than it is only BB effect what move
this system.
Regards:
Miklos
--- Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Miklos,
> I agree that if it is the BB effect then it would
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:23:51 +0000
Hi Miklos,
In that case, in the spirit of the scientific process,
I should try and replicate your experiment. Can you
please answer as much of the following as possible:
- What voltage are you using? If you don't know then
at least describing your power supply should help.
- Did you measure the current? If yes, how much?
- What are the dimensions of the device? What are
the dimensions of the electrodes inside the device?
- What materials is the device made of? How is it
made?
Thanks!
Steve
Miklos Borbas wrote:
> Hi Steve!
>
> I tested my system in smoke, its can not see any air
...
=======================================================================
From: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
To: Steven Dufresne
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:18:21 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Steve!
Here are the answers:
- My power supply is about 60kV, +/- 30kV, but I dont
know precisely voltage.
- I measured the current, it is about 3 mikroampers.
- Dimensions of candles: 15cm x 3cm. Needles are 3cm
long.
- Candles are quiet yellow candles.
Regards:
Miklos
--- Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Miklos,
> In that case, in the spirit of the scientific
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:03:01 +0000
Hi Miklos!
Thanks for the information. I was just starting to
get ready to put together the parts and was looking
at your diagram (candle.wmv) when I realized what
was likely producing the force. The feed wires.
Your device is such a good capacitor and the parts
inside the wax are so far apart that the capacitor
that is producing the force is not the device. The
capacitor that is producing the force is the feed
wires where they are closest together (see the
attached picture). This is where you have the
strongest electric field. The insulation does not
matter when the electric field is so strong. The
thing that is ionizing the air molecules is the
strong electric field near the wires. This strong
electric field rips electrons from the molecules,
producing ions. The ions are then moved by the
electric field. Here is the explanation of what
then happens:
"This can be simply explained by the fact that the
ionic mobility of positive ions in the air,
1.32 (cm/sec)/(volt/cm), is less than the ionic
mobility of negative ions in the air,
2.51 (cm/sec)/(volt/cm). The concentration of the
electric field near the thin wire produces a corona
discharge. Positive ions are generated at the wire,
the wire positively charged repels the ions and thus
the force on the wire is roughly equal to that on
the ions. The negative/positive mobility of ions
ratio is about 1.9, so the force on a positive
conductor is greater than on a negative conductor,
this is the cause of the generation of
an unidirectionnal thrust."
The above is from:
http://members.aol.com/ekpland/html/pcespend.htm
where the same thing is happening. In his case
Jean-Louis gets no movement with insulated wires
(TEST #2). However, his wires are far apart. Your
wires are close together.
I would ask that you do one more test. Arrange your
wires so that they are farther apart and, as much
as possible, make the wires parallel to the axis of
the rotor arm (i.e. try not to have one wire be
in front of the other wire). Now the stronger electric
field will be inside and around the device. My bet
is the following:
- without a bag you might have some weak movement
because of the asymmetric electric field around the
device, and
- with a bag that is inflated all around the device,
so that the insides of the bag in all directions are
far from the device, you will have no movement.
If you want more ideas for using bags and paper to block
air movement, see:
http://rimstar.org/sdprop/poynting/cdpoc1/cdpoc1.htm
I hope you do this test and let me know the results.
Cheers!
Steve
Miklos Borbas wrote:
> Hi Steve!
>
> Here are the answers:
...
--------------050203080608040807070502
Content-Type: image/jpeg;
name="gyertya_posexpla.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline;
filename="gyertya_posexpla.jpg"
Attachment: gyertya_posexpla.jpg
 |
|
=======================================================================
From: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
To: Steven Dufresne
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:05:08 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Steve!
I moved the wires as possible highes distance and put
more insulation to the wires.
Nothing is changed, the thrust is still exist, like
before.
Regards:
Miklos
--- Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Miklos!
> Thanks for the information. I was just starting to
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:44:16 +0000
Hi Miklos,
I can't think of anything else that can be causing the
movement. I'll try and replicate it then.
Thanks for doing these tests! You're doing good science.
Steve
Miklos Borbas wrote:
> Hi Steve!
>
> I moved the wires as possible highes distance and put
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:01:01 +0000
Hi Miklos,
I'd like to make my replication as close as possible
to what you did the first time so I have a few more
questions.
1. What did you use for the needle electrode? Did you
use a sewing needle?
3. Your drawing, candles.wmf, says "Needles". Did you
use more than one needle?
2. What is the distance between the electrodes (the
tip of the needle and the flat electrode)? An estimate
will be okay.
4. Did you use an actual candle? A candle has a
wick/string down the middle. Did you leave the wick
in place or did you remove it somehow? Can you
please explain what you did with this?
5. Your drawing, candles.wmf, says "Sleek conductor
surface". What do you mean by "Sleek"?
Sorry for the trouble but these details may be
important and I'd like to get it right the first time.
Thanks!
Steve
=======================================================================
From: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
To: Steven Dufresne
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 01:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Steve!
Here are the ansvers:
--- Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Miklos,
> I'd like to make my replication as close as possible
> to what you did the first time so I have a few more
> questions.
>
> 1. What did you use for the needle electrode? Did
> you
> use a sewing needle?
Yes, you can use sewing needle.
> 3. Your drawing, candles.wmf, says "Needles". Did
> you
> use more than one needle?
Yes, I used 3 needles.
> 2. What is the distance between the electrodes (the
> tip of the needle and the flat electrode)? An
> estimate
> will be okay.
About 12cm, it is not a strict distance.
> 4. Did you use an actual candle? A candle has a
> wick/string down the middle. Did you leave the wick
> in place or did you remove it somehow? Can you
> please explain what you did with this?
I only removed the endes of candles, I leave the wick.
> 5. Your drawing, candles.wmf, says "Sleek conductor
> surface". What do you mean by "Sleek"?
That electrode can not have rubs, that must be sleek.
Practically I only put on the opposit side of candles
insulated wire, like on the picture.
Regards:
Miklos
> Sorry for the trouble but these details may be
> important and I'd like to get it right the first
> time.
> Thanks!
> Steve
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:31:36 +0000
Hi Miklos!
Thank you for your answers. I have another question plus an observation.
You say that you only removed the ends of the candles. Did you then
push the needles into the wax, 3cm deep? In that case the needles must
be beside the wick in the wax. Can you please tell me if this is right.
Also, I think the needles may be interacting more with the insulated
wires that you've wrapped around the candle than they are with the disk.
See the attached. Just an observation.
Thanks!
Steve
PS. I have the candles now. Hopefully this weekend I'll do the
replication. If not, it'll be early next week.
Miklos Borbas wrote:
> Hi Steve!
>
> Here are the ansvers:
...
--------------070900010303010302080004
Content-Type: image/jpeg;
name="gyertya_electrodes1.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline;
filename="gyertya_electrodes1.jpg"
gyertya_electrodes1.jpg (NOTE: from correspondance
with Miklos, there is no smooth rounded disk, only the insulated wire is
on that end)
|
|
=======================================================================
From: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
To: Steven Dufresne
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 02:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Steve!
Yes, I pushed needles into the wax, and to other side
put insulation (yellow colour, its can see on the
picture). Neddles are beside the wick in the wax.
Regards:
Miklos
--- Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Miklos!
> Thank you for your answers. I have another question
...
=======================================================================
From: Steven Dufresne
To: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:04:51 +0000
Hi Miklos,
Did I put the needles on the wrong side in my drawing?
I've attached it again.
Thanks,
Steve
Miklos Borbas wrote:
> Hi Steve!
>
> Yes, I pushed needles into the wax, and to other side
...
--------------050302060306030905010304
Content-Type: image/jpeg;
name="gyertya_electrodes1.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline;
filename="gyertya_electrodes1.jpg"
gyertya_electrodes1.jpg (NOTE: from correspondance
with Miklos, there is no smooth rounded disk, only the insulated wire is
on that end)
|
|
=======================================================================
From: Miklos Borbas
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Lifters] significantly increased lifter thrust]
To: Steven Dufresne
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 06:10:09 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Steve!
"Yellow" insulation is on the greater side of needles,
from outside of candle. On other side of candle is
insulated wire.
Miklos
--- Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Miklos,
> Did I put the needles on the wrong side in my
...
=======================================================================
